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63 Posts  Hey folks,
This is a spot to share technical knowledge for everyone's benefit! Admittedly, some of this may be kind of 'endgamey', but certainly will help out understanding and improving stats as you level up. In any case, it should be easier than perusing the LOTRO forums for specific detailed info you might be interested in. 
63 Posts  Critical Defense: How far is too far?
So, there's been ongoing discussions ingame about the topic of Critical Defense and the benefits of working it up. Critical defense protects you specifically against damage taken from critical hits. So, the higher your crit defense the better protected you are when you are receive a critical hit.
But, how much is enough? Some say 50%, some say keep going up! Several threads on the Forums reinforce this idea of 50% crit defense as a goal, and here's why...
When a mob (or PvMP player) scores a critical hit on you, the damage that is generated is multiplied by 1.5 (the standard crit multiplier). So, lets just say that you take a critical hit, and the initial damage was 100, which is then put to the 1.5 crit multiplier, for a total of 150 damage. That 1.5 represents a 50% bonus to the damage. Here's the math:
100 [Initial damage] + (100 * 1.5 = 50) [critical multiplier] = 150 [total damage]
But, what if we were clever and beefed up our Critical Defense prior to taking that hit? Let's say that our Critical Defense rating is 30% with some Crit Defense jewelry, weapons, or armor. That Crit Defense protects us directly from that critical hit damage bonus from our enemy. Here's the math on that:
100 [Initial damage] + (100 * 1.5 = 50) [critical multiplier] = 150 [total damage]  (.3 [30% crit defense] x 100 [Initial damage] = 30) = 120 [Net damage]
So, two key things here. 1) The crit defense % is multiplied by the initial damage, just as is the critical multiplier, and is then subtracted from the total damage. 2) Crit defense damage reduction applies ONLY to critical damage, not the initial damage. Why is this important? Let's look at a 50% critical defense rating to see:
100 [Initial damage] + (100 * 1.5 = 50) [critical multiplier] = 150 [total damage]  (.5 [50% crit defense] x 100 [Initial damage] = 50) = 100 [Net damage]
As you can see in the example above, a 50% crit defense rating NEGATES the standard 1.5 multiplier critical damage bonus. But, what if we go beyond, say to 70%? You can certainly do that, but recall #2 above  crit defense damage reduction applies ONLY to critical damage, not the initial damage. So, the math looks like this:
100 [Initial damage] + (100 * 1.5 = 50) [critical multiplier] = 150 [total damage]  (.7 [70% crit defense] x 100 [Initial damage] = 50! It only negates critical damage) = still 100 [Net damage]
So, to my understanding of the crit defense system, there are no gains to greater than 50% crit defense. This would mean to spend your treasured stats on other things when you hit that 50% crit defense level.
Am I wrong on this? Please let me know if you have alternate information!

Kinsman/Kins... 46 Posts  I'm guessing your talking about this strictly for moors... but other minstrels ran as much as possible with the mits to help with w/e dmg is coming there way. Some minstrels I touch base with when I was more active in moors said this stat was the main one they would talk about after my mits were maxed out. Now, as you play a guardian I imagine your cap is different then say loremaster but I'm not sure. As well, has turbine even released info about soft caps or hard caps with stats like these or is this all speculation? 
Voluntary As... 169 Posts  Just to play devil's advocate... In your scenario, when you would have taken 100 damage, with a crit you'd take 150. Let's say crits happen 10% of the time. That means:
 If you have 10% crit defense, you save 10 damage 10% of the time
 If you have 20% crit defense, you save 20 damage 10% of the time
 ...
 If you have 50% crit defense, you save 50 damage 10% of the time
 If you have 60% crit defense, you save 60 damage 10% of the time
... If you have 100% crit defense, you save 100 damage 10% of the time
... If you have 150% crit defense, you save 150 damage 10% of the time
Everything about this math is the same even if you're taking 1000 damage instead of 100, or even if the rate of crits is 20% instead of 10%. So mathematically, every point of crit defense is precisely as valuable as every other one, right up to 150%. The 51st point saves exactly as much as the 50th had. What's going to stop you getting more is that you need your essence slots for other things even more. For instance, if your mitigations aren't at cap, won't mitigations always save you more damage than critical defense? 
63 Posts 
#11101390 Rasdro wrote:I'm guessing your talking about this strictly for moors... but other minstrels ran as much as possible with the mits to help with w/e dmg is coming there way. Some minstrels I touch base with when I was more active in moors said this stat was the main one they would talk about after my mits were maxed out. Now, as you play a guardian I imagine your cap is different then say loremaster but I'm not sure. As well, has turbine even released info about soft caps or hard caps with stats like these or is this all speculation?
Thanks for posting, Ras. So, crit defense is super important in the Moors because in general you have a higher likelihood of taking crit hits, but this certainly applies to PVE too. Yes, physical and tactical mits are key (and maybe another thread here for those), and a key factor to one's overall 'build'. Zonflux identifies the four primary 'defensive' factors to focus on  Block/Parry/Evade (BPE), partial mitigations, crit defense, and physical/tactical mitigations. That order (as I recall) is also the order of the calculations that occur to determine the overall net damage taken from a hit. For this thread I was just looking at critical defense (to not get too complex). The main stat cap that differs by class is physical/tactical mitigation. So, as a Guard, my caps are at 60% for both (except in Moors or some PVE mobs/bosses where Orc Craft damage requires overcapping to help mitigate). Also, overcapping does help with fighting higher level mobs. From https://lotrowiki.com/index.php/Character_Stats: Vitality, Will, Fate, Might, Agility: No caps Melee, Ranged, Tactical Offense: 200% Melee, Ranged, Tactical Critical chance: 25% Devastating Critical chance: 10% Block, Evade, Parry chance: 25% Partial Avoidance chance: 10% Partial Avoidance Mitigation: 15% All Resistances: 50% (checking required) Finesse: 50% (checking required) Mitigation caps: Light Armour rating: max. 40% Mitigation Medium Armour rating: max. 50% Mitigation Heavy Armour rating: max. 60% Mitigation Incoming Healing: 25% Outgoing Healing: 70% 
63 Posts  Thanks for the post, Sage...
#11101681 Sageflower wrote:Just to play devil's advocate... In your scenario, when you would have taken 100 damage, with a crit you'd take 150. Let's say crits happen 10% of the time. That means:
[list] [*]If you have 10% crit defense, you save 10 damage 10% of the time [*]If you have 20% crit defense, you save 20 damage 10% of the time [*]... [*]If you have 50% crit defense, you save 50 damage 10% of the time
So, yes, up to this point this looks right. That 'crit likelihood' is dependent on the critical rating of your opponent.
#11101681 Sageflower wrote: [*]If you have 60% crit defense, you save 60 damage 10% of the time ... [*]If you have 100% crit defense, you save 100 damage 10% of the time ... [*]If you have 150% crit defense, you save 150 damage 10% of the time
Ok, this is not correct. Since the standard critical damage 'bonus' is 50% of the initial damage, and critical defense applies ONLY to critical damage, it cannot be applied to anything over that 50%. In the example of 100 initial damage, that 50% equals 50 damage (For 150 initial damage, that would be 75, etc.). Since critical defense applies only to critical damage, it cannot be more that that 50% (i.e. 50 damage for 100 initial; 75 damage for 150, etc.).
#11101681 Sageflower wrote:
Everything about this math is the same even if you're taking 1000 damage instead of 100, or even if the rate of crits is 20% instead of 10%.
So mathematically, every point of crit defense is precisely as valuable as every other one, right up to 150%. The 51st point saves exactly as much as the 50th had.
What's going to stop you getting more is that you need your essence slots for other things even more. For instance, if your mitigations aren't at cap, won't mitigations always save you more damage than critical defense?
Ok, so this is not right either. To my point above, anything over 50% critical defense  unless the sources that I'm using are wrong  does not do anything additional for reducing critical damage, because you have negated it. (I do imagine there are situations where opponents have buffs that put them beyond the 1.5 critical multiplier, in which case overcapping crit defense makes sense).
#11101681 Sageflower wrote: What's going to stop you getting more is that you need your essence slots for other things even more. For instance, if your mitigations aren't at cap, won't mitigations always save you more damage than critical defense?
Yes, so in the bigger picture of your 'build', focusing on other things as well is key. Capping physical and tactical mits would be my priority before getting my crit defense to 50%. Also, of course, are balancing your offense stats in there as well; e.g. crit rating, physical/tactical mastery, finesse, etc). 
Voluntary As... 169 Posts  Ah, if critical defense caps at the actual critical damage rather than applying to modified damage on the whole, there's never a reason to go past 50%. (Given how much else could go into those slots, it's hard to imagine ever having the slots to get that far anyway.) 
63 Posts 
#11104113 Sageflower wrote:Ah, if critical defense caps at the actual critical damage rather than applying to modified damage on the whole, there's never a reason to go past 50%. (Given how much else could go into those slots, it's hard to imagine ever having the slots to get that far anyway.)
Yes, as many of the Forums state that I use as guides for my Guard builds. However, I can imagine there are situations where an opponent's buffs send it higher than the 1.5 critical multiplier (the 50% critical damage bonus). For example, Guards have a Devastate Magnitude legacy for LIs that buffs critical damage. 
36 Posts  Critical Magnitude is almost never only 25%, that's chance to crit which isn't altered by critical defence.
For instance, Critical magnitude usually sits around 3840% for stuff with 25% critical chance. So... that's not a 1.5 modifier.
Sure, if the enemy only has a modifier of 1.5, or MAGNITUDE of 25% (which I actually have never seen beyond SoA landscape), then 50% crit def is all that's required.
I just tested this against a creep, and I tested it against a regular mob in Ostgiliath. I changed out my critical defence armour (swapping) for a difference of about 8%...
Critical Defence: 73.8% = scored a critical hit with Plague Gourd on Skoch for 565 Shadow damage to Morale.
Critical Defence: 65.3% = scored a critical hit with Plague Gourd on Skoch for 606 Shadow damage to Morale.
So, no, beyond little Landscape greenie mobs, you do need to have above 50% critical defence if you plan to negate the critical damage that the enemy will do.
Reduces the Magnitude of Incoming Critical and Devistating Hits by xx.x% So... I take 73.8% less critical damage. Rozalinde Fairholm: ''He's the handsomest hobgoblin there is, that's for sure.'' 
63 Posts  Awesome, Skoch! Thanks for the info and the research. I need to rethink the subject and also put it context better with critical chance/magnitude and devastate chance/magnitude. I'll post that in the very near future. 
 